October 10, 1997
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Promise Keepers - Standing in the Gap
I don't follow PK. For some reason they don't interest me-their
accountabiltiy to a "guy" just takes the Holy Spirit out of the
picture. As we know its the HS, the HS. He's our guy we should be
accountable to. I'm suspicious of them, also. It is so simple but we
make it so complicated. Satan knows where our power comes from and he
is shrewd at confusing us, especially if we are not close to Christ. I
pray He comes this Rashashana, but if not we will endure.
I agree. PK has some good points but there are some grave errors in the
Amen.. all this accountablity talk..... We are minute by minute
accountable to the Savior of our Souls.. Search me Oh Lord!
Four Fingers - PK/SITG:
Got the commentary on PK... was hoping you'd address it... glad the Lord
led you to.
I'm so glad you took the time to write on the PK. I knew They were
saying "becoming as God", but I didn't know the rest and I can now tell
those who think what a great thing they (PK) are doing and prayerfully
cause them to think before they leap. That's what TBN and some (not
all) of the preachers on there believe, including Paul Crouch, who
states "We are little gods.". Keep up the good work - listening to the
promptings of the Holy Spirit. God bless you and guide you as you
continue working with God.
...as you talk with people about PK, just show them what Scripture
says. Does PK agree with it? That's the plumbline.
Oh my dear brother ..we need to prayer for our brothers in Christ who
are being led astray in the most subtle of deceptions.. thank you for
speaking about PK/// I am so disheartened today ... I am so sad for
them alll .. we already are one in Christ ,,,we already are reconciled
with one another.... we already have all we need to be "good" whatevers
in Jesus Christ of Nazareth..
Sad, indeed! I shed tears at times while I watched what was going on.
Some out of sadness. Some out of anger (Ps139:21-22) against the
rebellion against God...taking things of satan and placing them in the
midst of that which is called "Christian." Kind of an "abomination of
While we are disheartened, it is something we must come to terms with.
The fact is that MOST will reject God, and suffer the consequences.
After a while we come to understand, along with God, that their
judgment is "just" when it comes.(Rev16:6) And God will "soon" be
saying, "thus far, and no further."(Rev22:11) And "even so, Amen!"
Strengthen yourself in the Lord.(1Sam30:6b) Our Lord is returning soon!
Addendum: Psalm 50 (10-8-97)
Last night I spent almost the entire evening replying to people about
PK. Some of which appear in the "other" Q/A "PK-Rebuttals." As I was
finishing e-mailing, and checking for new mail, a note came from a
??-only person, whining about this and that. After dealing with several
things, about this point, I was feeling pretty disgusted with ??-only
people, after having dealt for a whole evening with "rebellion" against
God surrounding PK. I wrote a quick e-mail to a friend...Can we go
Just as I shared in "Don't Fret" same thing happened this morning when
I opened my Bible for my regular reading, I was in Psalm 50.
"The Mighty One, God the LORD has spoken...out of Zion, the perfection
of beauty, God will shine forth. Our God shall come, and shall not keep
silent; A fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very
tempestuous all around Him."(vs1-3)
So, while we who love the Lord may be "tired" and "weary" walking in
this world, we just need to "hang on" a little longer. Because our Lord
"will not keep silent." I believe it is very soon.
And in connection with PK, "But to the wicked God says: What right have
you to declare My statutes, or take My covenant in your mouth [call
yourselves "christian"], seeing you hate instruction and cast My words
[doctrine] behind you?"(vs16-17)
When they proclaim "walls come down" they are throwing God's Word "out
the window." God's Word [IS] doctrine!
Verses 18-21 describe PK. As you will notice in one of the sets of
exchange in the "Rebuttal" file, where the words of "grace" turn into
"diatribes" they actually "speak against" and "slander." And the
doctrine they DO hold to is described right here, "You thought that I
was altogether like you."(vs21) If you've read the "former" PK
"handbook" Masculine Journey, you would see how they bring Jesus down
to the level of locker room "guy talk." And sing "you be Jesus to me,
and I'll be Jesus to you."
And so, what is God's judgment on all this? "But I will rebuke
you...now consider this, you who forget God, lest I tear you in pieces
and there be none to deliver."(vs21-22)
But..."whoever offers praise glorifies Me; and to him who orders his
conduct aright I will show the salvation of God."(vs23)
These exchanges are included for a couple of reasons.
As you deal with the onsloughts, realize you are "not alone" in the
battle. Others are in it with you. And whatever you see "here" ...you
can take courage.
- Some points are answered, for which there wasn't "room" in the "Four
Fingers" commentary, which need to be said.
- As information and "enlightenment" in some cases as to the true
nature of those who support PK.
- Encouragement. Many of you who love the Lord find yourselves in
discussions with people about PK, either face-to-face, or on various
internet forums. The deception is so subtle at times, and they are
master manipulators of "facts." They are not always honest with you
about what they truly believe, just as the SITG was very carefully,
cleverly, orchestrated to present a message compatible for
public/political consumption...such that even our President thought it
was a wonderful thing. (Considering "what" he is, that should raise a
BiiiG "red flag" right there about the whole thing!)
A quick note:
In the first case I have included the second reply by the individual,
who didn't like my answers to his first note, and rather than speaking
about "issues" decided to make "personal attacks" on me. This one is
included so you can realize the true "spirit" behind many of these
people, as this is the kind of thing I used to see on the Religion
forum when I used to be with CompuServe. An example of the
"changelings" we have written about in the past. There is no need to
"consol me" over it. They have not attacked me, but Christ. And this is
the only way they know how to be. But, as Paul wrote, "...the brethren
in the Lord, having become confident by my chains, are much more bold
to speak the word without fear."(Phil1:14) While I don't consider this
a "chain" ..if it gives any of you more courage to not back down when
they attack, as they say..."Go for it!"
Dear Voice In The Wilderness,
While I understand many of our differing views on different topics in
the body of Christ, I'm disappointed at your criticism of our brothers
and sisters in the Lord who are at least trying to make a positive
difference, however faulty it may be.
Those who are true "Brothers and Sisters" In Christ I do not criticize.
When they (PK) teach false doctrine, and embrace into their bosoms all
those whom God hates as Pagan and worshippers of satan, how can they be
praised for "trying to make a positive difference?" That has as much
logic (aside from the Scriptural mandates I share with you-all all the
time) as feeding rat poison to a critically ill person in hopes of them
recovering...in spite of the pretty box the poison comes in, and the
soothing words of "great hope" and encouragement for their recovery,
and all the good intentions...the poison will kill them.
There are many lacks in our Christian walk that need to be addressed.
For example, you mentioned that Christ has already made us one and the
racial and cultural unity they desire isn't necessary or even good.
No. You misunderstand. (And, no, I did not say it's not necessary or
good.) They speak of "uniting brothers in Christ." Those who are "in
Christ" are ALREADY united. True...there is lack of unity...amongst
those who are NOT "In Christ." Those they are seeking to unite, they
erroneously call "brothers in Christ." But, I suppose, on a purely
humanistic level, it is a nice thing, socially, culturally, civically,
to get people to "get along better." But it's a lost cause, until they
come to Christ... Humanity has 6000 years of history proving that.
Even though we are one in Christ, we have a long way to go to live that
truth out individually in our lives. (Of course, we are not talking
about those who have not yet accepted Christ.)
Again...the problem is...those whom they are labelling as "brothers"
are NOT in Christ. They have not received Christ...believing, as
doctrines, things contrary to God's Word..."doctrines of
These are issues (racial unity etc.) that need to be dealt with. You
have a right to disagree as you see certain things that are unbiblical,
but add a little grace where they are doing something profitable.
Trouble is...again...what they package as "profitable" is the
aforementioned "rat poison." The whole scenario *IS* "unbiblical." And
in the context of this kind of discussion, the word "grace" actually
means "license...permissiveness." Let them be "as they are" ...in sin.
Don't ask them to change (repent). After all, such a concept is so
"harsh" and "Judgmental." In our enlightened culture, we must give
"allowances" for different viewpoints. After all, "don't all paths
reach to God?"
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the
Father except through Me." (Jn14:6) This...PK does not preach.
Thus...they are not "in Christ."(2Cor5:17)
Sorry if this sounds "harsh" to you. You did not show from Scripture
where I might have erred. I took the main points of the PK rally, and
compared them to Scripture. PK does not measure up...they are not even
on the same path...let alone "trying and failing."
This is the person's second reply.....
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN;
I would like to unsubscribe, to your articles. It appears to me that
you are bent on straining at a Nat while swallowing a camel. The letter
of the law killeth, but the spirit gives life. I don't hear or see
much life in your attitude toward the Body of Christ.
Didn't you write not to long ago that you had gone through a divorce ?
Perhaps we should judge you on that. Or maybe Promise Keepers has
something better for you sir.
It is people like you that keep the disharmony, and racial tensions
in the Body of Christ. How dare you sit on your self exalted throne,
and judge other members of the Body of Christ, with your cookie- cutter
mentality....I guess we all have to be like you in order for God to
accept us. Is that why your ex-wife left you?
Possibly, an example of the "grace" he mentioned in the other note..??
Excerpts from the next note:
I have been to only one Promise Keepers event, two years ago. I do
know that I came closer to the Lord because of it.
If you "came closer" to the Lord, then I rejoice.(Phil1:18) Based on
what else you write, a question pops into my mind...that would be, what
your definition of "closer" is. And then, the more important question
is, "are you IN Christ?"(2Cor5:17) Now...please do not misquote me
later as having said that you "are not." I am asking the question.
Yet you say 'PK is busy uniting all sorts of pagan entities
together under the umbrella of "christianity." Proclaiming "unity in
diversity." Claiming that all the various pagan beliefs are merely
"different parts" of the body of Christ.'
These were their "own words." Not mine. "Unity in diversity" is
essentially a direct quote...having been a sort-of "slogan" of the
...group for women, if Heritage Keepers would be more open, than
Promise Keepers is, to Mormons and Jehovah's Witness'.
PK is already "open" to these two groups...as well as Catholics,
Muslims (who were invited to join them last Saturday at SITG), etc.
While I will make no claim to perfection, I do know that all of mankind
is related to me, because we all go back to Adam and Eve.
Additionally, anyone who has accepted Christ is my adopted brother or
sister simply because through the shed blood of Christ, I have been
adopted to be a son of God.
Yes, the one who has "received" Christ.(Jn1:12)
A simple look around our nation is enough to know that the church has
No...the "Church" (Capital "C") has NOT missed this. Just because there
is a building with a sign out front, and people go there...doesn't mean
they are part of the "Church"...the body of Christ...even though it
carries the "label." Yes...many of those who go to those buildings each
Sunday have missed this. But not those who are in the Body of Christ.
To the church at Sardis, the Lord says, in Revelation 3:3 "Remember
therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.
If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and
thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." If the Lord will
say it here, why not also through PK?
Well, if you check the series (still on the "What's New" menu) on the
"Seven Churches" you will see that Sardis is "dead."(vs1) In other
words, they have a "name" called "church." But the word "dead" means
they are not real. But you notice that in Sardis are a "few names" who
will "walk with [Christ] in white."(vs4) Yes...you are right. PK "is"
like Sardis. It is dead. However, there are a "few names" in it, who
don't know any better, who do happen to be "worthy."(vs4)
Back to the unity, that you said is complete. Yes, I know that Christ
did complete it, and does desire for us to live it. The problem is that
the body of Christ has been fragmented into this denomination and that
denomination. Paul preached against this attitude in 1 Corinthians
1:12-13, where he wrote; "12Now this I say, that every one of you saith,
I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is
Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the
name of Paul?" So, it seems that the body of Christ was fragemented
(divided) almost from the beginning.
OK now...go back two verses. He says, "I plead with you that you all
speak the same thing..that you be perfectly joined together in the
same mind and in the same judgment."(vs10) If you look at the meanings
of these words "mind" and "Judgment" you will understand that Paul
speaks of "doctrine." This is something PK is PURPOSELY, DELIBERATELY
ignoring, rejecting, throwing out, as they proclaim "walls come down."
PK believes that "doctrine" is the "problem" regarding disunity. When,
actually Scripture teaches that divisions come from being "contrary to
doctrine."(Rom16:17) ...as the verse continues by saying about those
who do such, "avoid them."
This is not the same as the coming world church. That church will
exclude Jesus Christ, while an undivided body of Christ will worship
Jesus Christ and the Father.
Well...this is what SITG did on Saturday. They may have paid lip
service to "JESUS CHRIST" by all yelling it together. But once they got
down to the nitty gritty, and their "mission statement" for the
future...their gospel is "ecumenism and racial/cultural unification." I
was trying to remember back, but I don't recall that, once they got to
"third finger," that Jesus Christ was really addressed any further in
any substantive manner. If that isn't "exclusion" I don't know what is!
How do you suppose the Anti-Christ will be able to delude the whole
world? Why is he called the "anti-Christ?" Why is it called the
"delusion that they should believe the lie?"(2Ths2:11) It has to look,
for everything, to be like the real thing. That is Satan's strategy. He
appears as an "angel of light...and his ministers, as ministers of
righteousness."(2Cor11:13-15) Thus, while many are fooled and think
they are doing "christian things" when they meet Christ He will say
"depart, I never knew you."(Mt7:23)
You found paganism represented by the tepees. What is a tepee? It is
a type of abode, a house in a culture. The same attitude, which you
seem to have, put a wall between the Indians and Christ as they were
told they must become white men and accept Christ.
If this is true...merely a "type of abode"...why did they also not
display some motorhomes, prefab houses, maybe a condo or two...
Jesus, Himself said it, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through Me."(Jn14:6) Jesus was NOT a "white
I have heard one Native American address a PK event. His plea was for
preachers to reach the rest of the Indian community. They are the
least evangelized people in this hemisphere, possibly in the world.
So, why is it that many denominations, including people from PK have
actually "apologized" to the Native American peoples for having
attempted to bring them the gospel of Jesus Christ in years past?
Asking their "forgiveness" for trying to draw them away from their
paganism, to the true Jesus Christ. And, instead, ask to learn more
about spirit guides, animal teachers, ways of mother earth...
Yes...PK sounds quite impressive. As I wrote, they started out with
what sounded like a good ol' fashioned Bible thumping preaching time.
(I corresponded with someone whose relative only saw the first part,
and does not believe the second part, without Christ, even occured.)
Just remember...Satan knows Scripture better than you or I do...and
even preached to Jesus to try to tempt Him...even quoted Scripture to
Sorry...these are merely rebuttals. The rest, as well as the primary
Scriptures on the matter, was already stated in the original writings.
Epilogue: (Oct 10,97)
As you can about imagine, there have been some late nights this week
dealing with the Promise Keepers issue. It is amazing to see the
blindness, when Scripture is so "plain" to understand. In communication
with a couple of friends I have likened it unto the old adage, "You can
bring a horse to the water (or the water to the horse), but you can't
make him drink." Out of all the PK advocacies the only Scripture that
has been offered by them (to me), I'm sure in an effort to get me to
"shut up" were a couple instances represented by the following excerpt:
As to the debate concerning the Promise Keepers:
"Then stood up there one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a
doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and
commanded to put the apostles forth a little space...And now I say to
you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or
this work be of men, it will come to nought: ...But if it be of God, ye
cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against
Trouble is, Scripture says, "note those who cause division and
offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid
them."(Rom16:17) Promise keepers doesn't even want anything to do with
uniting "via doctrine." They are busy throwing Doctrine "out the
window" ...even changing their doctrine to be more "compatible with"
groups they are in communion with, in paganism.
Paul couldn't have been more clear..."even if we, or an angel from
heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to
you, let him be accursed."(Gal 1:8)
The "gospel" that Jesus commanded to be preached:
"It was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the
dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins
should be preached in His name to all nations...and you are
witnesses of these things."(Lk24:46-48) "Go into all the world...
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you
[by definition, DOCTRINE]."(Mk16:15,Mt28:20)
PK's "gospel" that they are going into all the world with:
Uniting "brothers" for ethnic, ecumenical, social reasons...
DISCARDING DOCTRINE in order to do so.
While I have been misquoted as saying that ethnic and social unity is
not a good thing...what I actually have stated is:
Their's is a "different gospel." They are "accursed." It can't be any
plainer than that.
- to those in Christ it is already there (Eph2:14-22, Col3:11)
- the world without Christ is not capable of achieving it(1Cor2:14)
- and PK is attempting it without Christ, by throwing doctrine out
the window(Rom 16:17) with "walls come down."
While PK attempts to unite people with man-made "covenants" and human
efforts to "do better"; since we referred to "water" (above); Jesus
speaks of "water" thusly, "..whoever drinks of the water that I shall
give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will
become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting
If you are not "in Christ" (2Cor5:17) The invitation stands before you.
The invitation to "receive Him."(Jn1:12) This could very well be your
The True Church of Jesus Christ invites you to drink....
"The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say,
'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take
the water of life freely." (Rev22:17)
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