A Voice in the
July 16, 2009
Overthrow the Government?
Had an interesting conversation recently where the question was raised
"does the Bible support overthrow of government (a fairly general
question)". The argument from one side referred primarily to Romans 13.
The argument was that Christians are to submit to government, not
overthrow it (basically ever).
My argument, was that the intent of Romans 13, was more to argue against
anarchy and disrespect of government officials. Since Romans was
written when there was much corruption and wickedness in Rome the point
cuts a bit, but that seems it's purpose. I pointed further to the book
of Judges, particularly Ehud to show that, at times, God chose some to
throw off corrupt government, even using violent means (this was in the
context of gun ownership, the sword being the modern day parallel to the
gun), and that in concert with Romans 13:1, God appointed governments
and he appoints the overthrow of them, so to assume that a Christian is
to always remain in submission to the Government, could be wrong, if God
were leading that individual's heart in a different direction. I also
asked whether the founders of the USA were biblically wrong to throw off
the bonds of England.
Does it not depend on the times and God's plans? One of the reasons
Israel was in Egypt before taking over the land was that the "iniquity
of the Amorites [was] not yet complete." (Gen15:16) And so, one of the
reasons God brought Israel into the land 'when' He did was to overthrow
the existing governments of the region because of their sin, idolatry
and corruption. Which, I have come to conclude is why various
historical empires have fallen, after they had risen to their pinnacles.
What one sees in their archaeological ruins is the remains of their
places of worship. It's not politically correct to say this: but is this
not also partly why the "white man" conquered the native American
nations... due to their pagan ways, worshiping eagles, wolves, and
everything that went with their medicine men and peyote, sacred pillars (totem poles), etc.etc. And now it is time for the USSA to come down, because they have adopted the pagan ways that God used them to throw down.
Ex 34:13 But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and chop down their groves
If I were looking at this question relative to the USSSA, if some
militias were to arise to seek to overthrow the present government,
would that necessarily be God's will? Is not its present path to demise
its judgment for rejecting and mocking God? If the USSSA is destined
for judgment, would the Christian want to go against God's will, by
seeking to 'restore' it through militia involvement? And so, even
though it is so evil, would the Christian not behave towards those in
authority as Daniel and his three compadres did in Babylon? We don't
hear about the three much beyond the fiery furnace; unless it is they
listed in Neh8:4, Ezr10:28, Neh3:8, etc but we know (for sure) that
Daniel lived to an old age, and was protected, through a couple of
regime/empire changes/upheavals. He did not survive that long by leading
uprisings, and such...but lived 'within' the system; through the lion's
den incident; evil and pagan though it was.
De 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.
I don't presently see any militia body that is arising for any Godly
purposes. As were the cases for past empires that fell, the USSA seems
to be falling. If it is the US that represents the "eagle" that helps
Israel (Re12:14), perhaps there will be a reprieve, of sorts, where God
will partially restore it for His purposes? But that will no doubt be
-after- its involvement as "all the nations" have come against Israel.
(Zec12:3) Perhaps the next election cycle, and a different president is
elected, and the nation goes scrambling to repair what is being done
right now? (Sarah Palin is behaving -very- unconventionally recently!)
The nation scrambled after the complacency before Pearl Harbor, and many
deaths in battle, to ultimately spearhead the victories of WW2. Who
When I said that I don't see any militia rising right now, what is
needed is a Godly 'spiritual' awakening. Until there is national
repentance, like Nineveh did at the preaching of Jonah, any militia
uprising will be useless. The problem is 'spiritual', not 'political'.
The political is merely the symptom of the spiritual. And as such, a
political/physical uprising, even if such a thing were to come about,
will not solve the spiritual depravity.
On July15 Chuck Baldwin had a commentary on Romans 13
And says our submission is to the Constitution; not the people running the country. True, as
far as that goes. But when thugs have guns to your head, of what use is
the Constitution at that moment? This country is being run by 'thugs'
right now, who do not respect the Constitution. (Clinton viewed it as a
"living document", continually changing. And Bush has been falsely attributed as having called it "that @@
piece of paper". And Obama has even less respect, but is thinking
'globally' instead of 'nationally') If that were not the case, the
question would not even be on the table, because then the people/rulers
would be following the Constitution; and there would be no 'need' for
thoughts to 'overthrow' the government. And I guess this, then, becomes
semantical. The Constitution does not need 'overthrowing'; but the
people/rulers who are abandoning it, do. But if the 'thugs' manage to
convene a Constitutional Convention, which is only two states away, then
the -real- battle begins. But they will probably ram it through, without
fully reading it, like they are doing with all the current legislation
they are passing right-and-left....thousands of pages which those voting
haven't read. But that's politics.
My answer remains: This country has a 'spiritual' problem, which a
physical 'overthrow' will not solve. If the spiritual is fixed, then the
political will follow. But I don't see the spiritual being fixed anytime
soon. Anybody seen Jonah walking around lately???
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev at the recent G8 summit pulled this sample out of his pocket and introduced it.
We are at the Door. Soon
Jesus will take us home but until then???
Notice it has -5- 5-pointed stars, and 5 'layers' of the "1", and 5
horizontal lines, and 5 different kind of leaves. If "6" (666) is the number of a "man", it is
said that "5" is the number of satan. e.g. the inverted pentagram,
But this is not yet -the- "mark". This coin might have "5"...but then,
our present dollar bills have occult symbols of masonry, etc.etc. Using
the new coin would be no different than using dollars. Neither are the
"mark", which is received in the hand or forehead. But it certainly
-could- end up being the monetary 'value' attached to commerce done with