October 26, 2006
23 minutes in hell?
An alleged testimonial, the person claiming to have had an out-of-body experience, going to (alleged) "hell"; describing being in a prison cell with bars and stone walls, of heat, thirst and hunger, of utter darkness, of demons throwing him against walls and breaking all his bones, of demons ripping and shredding the flesh off his body; that the demons were tall scale-covered creatures, twisted into grotesque shapes, with arms of unequal length; and in this environment also seeing landscapes, etc. And then along comes a "jesus" to communicate with him, and brings him out of it, and he returns to his body, curled up on the floor, screaming in agony, where his wife, having awakened out of bed in the middle of the night, finds him.
He certainly has tied oodles of Scripture to most everything he says... a good deal of it out-of-context; but I'm not going to waste the time right now to refute each of them. (The overall big picture is so perverted, the relative minutia can take care of itself) While reading, I was continually NOT having a witness of the Holy Spirit with it all. It was seeming "made up" (contrived) to me. Contrived: either by Wiese; or more likely by the demons giving him the experience?
And then the reading comes to the part where he is alleging to be hearing from Jesus, and 'jesus' says about the demons, "You just have to bind them and cast them out in my name" Did you notice he did not provide a Scripture reference for that, like he had been doing with everything else up to that point....and also, such a thing is not found in Scripture (even out of context)....even though earlier at the beginning he was claiming that -everything- he experienced, he also knew Scripture references and precedents for them. What did he say? '400' references?
This also is further proof that Calvary Chapel, which is his background, -is- "charismatic"... even though many CCers try to claim they are not. Extra-Biblical visions and "jesuses" telling people things contrary to the Scriptures. That's the very life-blood of charismania.
'Experiences' vs "Thus says the Lord" -- Feelings vs Scripture
"I have heard what the prophets have said, who prophesy lies in My name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed." (Jer23:25) "And Jehovah said to me, The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I did not send them, nor have I commanded them, nor did I speak to them. They prophesy to you a false vision and a worthless divination, and a thing of no value, and the deceit of their heart." (Jer14:14)
We do not "bind" the demons. Demons are "greater in power" than we are. (2Pet2:11) And the "binding" that Scripture mentions is when the "angel" comes down from Heaven and binds the "dragon/serpent/satan/devil" (Rev20:1-2)
Also, I don't know of any Scripture that says -demons- do any of the tormenting of the sinner. The rich man was tormented "in the flame" (Lk16:24) If hell was created for "the devil and his angels" (Mt25:41), are they not there receiving their -own- punishment and torments? Torment is from the "fire and brimstone...forever and ever" (Rev14:10-11)
But indeed...the 'tallness' of the demons he mentions sounds about right for some visions satan gives. For whatever reason (perhaps to test me? After all, Jesus was tested by the devil Mt4:1 and these days the false prophets rely on visions: to prove whether or not, is PB also going to believe the false visions?), the Lord allowed me to receive such a vision (not in 'hell', but a messenger)... it was related to my ex's shenanigans related to her divorce proceedings against me. This messenger came with a message in a dream. And once all was said and done, I came to realize that the 'timing' of some things that did happen was related to what the messenger had said to me...but the 'what' of the message was in error...totally; even though it was something I -wanted- to hear. I suspect, a deliberate lie. After all, satan is the "father" of lies. (Jn8:44) Perhaps part of that aforementioned "test": is PB going to accept a false vision based on 'emotions' of what he REALLY WANTS TO HEAR, or is he going to sort out after the 'truth'?
After all, I had already just been tested with "christian" psychology, pedaled by those claiming to be "christian"; and rejected it when it contradicted the Scriptures. So, perhaps a 'vision' was the -next- test?
But the messenger, itself, was 'tall'....much like that tall figure on the album jacket of the Led Zepplin "Stairway to Heaven", although I did not look up into the face. While I was seeing the dream I was noticing the 'bright light'....which is something many people report when they see these visions/dreams. But then, in retrospect, as I was 'analyzing' what I had seen and heard...putting all the pieces together with the reasoned logic of a 'sound mind' (Rom7:25, 1Co14:15, 2Tim1:7, Tit1:8, 1Pet4:7)...the dream and the events as they -actually- happened, compared to what the messenger said would be....I also realized that that 'light' I had seen had been 'behind' the tall figure...but that the tall figure, itself, had been dark...extremely dark. Whenever people/prophets saw God and God's righteous angels, if it describes their appearance, it always says that their whole being shone brightly. (Ezk1:27-28, Mt17:2, 28:3, Rev1:14-15, etc) It was not some light shining -on- them (from another source)...but the light emanated -from- them. Even Moses, after having been with God in the mountain, his -own- face shone. (Ex34:29-30)
Satan "transforms himself into an angel of light" (2Co11:14), but the light 'tricks' he plays are not of his own origins. They are illusory.
Paul exhorted: "But even if we, or an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." (Ga1:8-9)
This testimonial of the alleged 'hell' is something Paul would call "accursed". It is extra-biblical.
Jesus also warned of people, in the last days, claiming to be Christ, here and there, like the person in Wiese's vision: Jesus warned...
"DO NOT BELIEVE IT" (Mt24:23-26)
I've also shared in the past about one time, while busily engaged in writing one of the VW monthly articles, some years ago when it was still a 'snail' mailing and not a website, suddenly while thus-engaged I realized in the Spirit that about a dozen or two demons were 'watching' me as I worked. I could not see them with my physical eyes, but in the spirit I 'knew' they were there (I could have pointed to each one specifically: there, there, there, etc), crouching in a perfect circle around me, about 10-15 ft radius away, in their crouched state perhaps 3 feet (1 meter) high. They were not 'threatening' or acting hostile; but were just quietly watching. Kinda like birds perched on the fence. It suddenly gave me understanding of the "table" God prepares for us "in the presence of my enemies" (Ps23:5) as I continued what the Lord had given me to do. Part of the "cloud of witnesses" I expect. (Heb12:1)
So, I don't know what to make of physical 'size' considerations. Wiese speaks of 12-13 feet tall, which pretty much agrees with the 'messenger' of my dream. But these others that were watching me were crouching at 3ft high. If angels are "ministering spirits" (Heb1:14), and demons are fallen angels (Ju1:6), how do we reconcile the spiritual and their 'visible' manifestations? When angels appeared to people, they often appeared as 'people'; for instance the "young man" when Jesus was resurrected. (Mk16:5) With Daniel, the "man" (Dan12:6-7) When the New Jerusalem is being measured John equates the angel's measurements with "of a man". (Rev21:17) Abraham initially thought he was entertaining three "men" (Gen18:2) I expect that this is all stuff we won't know for sure until we get There, and see for ourselves.
He also speaks of the creatures in his experience being "1000 times" stronger, as they were flinging him here and there. I expect this was real, too. Another experience I had, some years after that other one mentioned above, sitting at the computer at the store, working on something for VW: suddenly I was aware, in the spirit, that some awesome indescribable -huge- power was rushing in upon me from behind, and a 'whisp' of wind actually brushed the back of my head through my hair, and then was gone. Sort of, as if somebody had snuck up behind you and blown, "Phooo!" against the back of your head, or waved something to create a draft. Mind you, it was winter: all outside doors were closed and I didn't have any fans blowing. But I looked around anyway just to be sure there was no -physical- 'source' that could possibly have created such a 'breeze' against my head. Nothing. To this day I don't know if the 'huge power' was a demon, or God's protective angel diverting the demon; or perhaps both? 'Something' happened that afternoon, but I don't know what. God knows. (2Co12:3)
There have been some other things, such as in traffic: on a couple of occasions where vehicles next to me have made 'unnatural' movements in conjunction with being 'threatening' and/or taunting. And in one such case, the vehicle, once I had grabbed some throttle (motorcycle) to get away, suddenly was -gone- (disappeared) as I would look around and in the mirrors to see where it was; but it wasn't anywhere to be seen. But these things don't 'worry' me; I have come to 'expect' them from time to time. (And even as this is being prepared, somebody just now walked in to the store wanting a reproduction of a demonic 'serpent' graphic) But I also years ago received assurance, even more certainly than the 'huge' power and the breeze in my hair, from the Lord, that His protection was over me. There was that period in life where things were very 'low', and I thought, due to my sorrow, that I would die of heart failure; literally. And the Lord's assurance was as sure as anything I know, that I would not die. So, on those occasions where the oncoming traffic, one-by-one, one-after-the-other, would veer straight towards me across the center line, and then back into their own lane (almost as though all of them knew each other and had rehearsed those moves as a 'routine' on purpose): while I would remain vigilant, ready for brakes or evasive maneuvers, I did not panic. And... as a point of interest to you reading this and possibly shaking your heads, thinking: Man! He's gone off the deep end this time! When these sorts of things have happened, and if I then ever get up alongside a vehicle to get a look at the driver, what I typically see is a person in what looks like a "zombie" state. These things are not sourced from the drivers of the vehicles, such as in 'anger' or such; but somebody 'behind' them, pulling their strings, pushing their buttons.
Things of the spirit realm -are- 'real'. Demons are real, and are in the world today. So, I have no doubt Bill Wiese could have experienced 'something'.
Certainly the Lake of Fire is real. The Bible says it is. (Rev20:14-15) A place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mt13:42,50) But I doubt that it is anything like what Wiese purports to have seen. His story sounds more like a variation of Dante's "Inferno", or that alleged incident of the Russians, years ago, dropping the microphones down that hole in Siberia and recording the sounds of alleged "screams".
The question was raised: Why would Jesus have put him through this experience? The (alleged) "jesus" is alleged to have replied: "Because people do not believe that this place exists....Even some of my own people do not believe this place is real." And so, Wiese was allegedly -commissioned- to proclaim it and tell people about it.
JESUS (of the Scriptures) would NOT send a True Believer to such a place; even for the reasons as allegedly stated! For the things I have experienced, as relatively 'minimal' as they have been (although a head-on crash on the motorcycle could have been physically lethal), I have also had God's protection; "Behold, I give you authority to tread over serpents and scorpions, and upon ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY, and nothing shall by any means hurt you (Lk10:19); which Wiese apparently does not have.
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Th5:9)
"Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone... Do not be led astray, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of Lights, with whom there is no change or shadow of turning." (Ja1:13,16-17)
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" (Mt7:11)
We already have the example from Scripture of the "rich man" who dies and finds himself "tormented in [the] flame" (Lk16:24) The rich man, in talking with Abraham, desires that Lazarus might be sent back to warn his family, and what does Abraham reply? "They have Moses and the Prophets (in other words: the Scriptures); let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets (Scriptures), neither will they be persuaded though one should rise from the dead" (emotional experiences) (vs29-31)
And what is the record and proof of this statement? Lazarus -was- raised from the dead (Jn11), and what did the rulers want to do?
"But the chief priest took counsel to put Lazarus to death also, because on account of him many of the Jews went away and continued to believe into Jesus." (Jn12:10-11)
Also remember... Lazarus was not in hell; he was in "Abraham's bosom", a place separated from the "flame" by a "great chasm", and those from Abraham's bosom could "not pass over" to there. (Lk16:22-26)
If the righteous did not go to a place of the "flame" back then, when Jesus was on earth 2000 years ago, then they don't now, either. Scripture HAS BEEN GIVEN "once for all" (Ju1:3) Doctrine of the Faith does not change. God does not change. (Mal3:6) God is not giving the Church any "new revelations" that are not already in the Scriptures. Prophecies "came to an end" (1Co13:8) when the apostles died. The Scriptures were "breathed by God" and provide all that is necessary for the "man of God" to be "complete" (2Tim3:16-17) and Jesus Christ is the "same yesterday, today, and forever." (Heb13:8)
If satan and his demons are giving false visions, do we understand better, also, why there is such militance these days for perVerted translations of the Scriptures? Any perverted translation is part of satan's lie!
Jesus warned: "Take heed that no one leads you astray. For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will lead many astray" (Mt24:4-5)
If this man had a true vision, or if he made it all up (I suspect it was real...but not from God)...whatever the case might be, he is making claims to -a- "jesus" that is NOT our Savior who died on the cross for our sin. The -real- Jesus said this sort of thing would happen. Don't believe it. Don't be suckered in. Don't be wowed, mesmerized and duped.
Jesus says, "Behold, I have told you beforehand" (vs25)
The next time the world sees Jesus it will be: "..as the lightning comes out of the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (vs27) Anything else is the "spirit of the antichrist" that "is now already in the world" (1Jn4:3)
Never to exist again?
A subscriber visited a website which included a doctrinal statement, of which they question one of its points:
is this man twisting the Scriptures (i.e. 'not a place of continual torment for the wicked' and '....consumed by fire, never to exist again throughout all eternity.')?
But as for the "never to exist again", Jesus answers this, "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Is66:24, Mk9:44,46,48)
The verses they give in "support" of the statement do not support this at all. NONE of them state anything about "never to exist again". Half the verses are dispensationally misapplied: of the destruction of the current physical universe, as well as things related to Israel and Israel's enemies. But even Rev20:10, which they give, says: "tormented day and night forever and ever". That's not "never to exist again".
But that's what a lot of false teachers do. They proclaim something, and then spout off a lot of Scripture -references-; and the mere fact that so many 'references' are given mesmerizes many into believing what they assert, as they don't bother to look them up. When Jack Van Impe does this, he rattles the references off so fast and furiously, it would be physically impossible to even write them down to even look them up!
But the True Believer needs to be a "Berean", and to "search the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things are so" (Ac17:11)
That also goes for what's given here. Don't trust PB, alone. Look up the Scriptures! What does GOD's WORD say?